Mark Dice, leader of a Christian group known as The Resistance, is pressing the town of Elberton, Georgia to remove a 19-foot tall granite monument that sets out "ten guidestones" to an age of reason in eight different languages. The Georgia Guidestones Monument is a tourist attraction. A release by the Elberton Chamber of Commerce says that the monument is located on county property and was constructed in 1980 after being commissioned by a man that identified himself only as R.C. Christian. Elberton is the granite capital of the world. According to a WorldNet Daily report earlier this week, Dice argues that the monument contains pagan, New Age and satanic themes. He says: "We have atheists and Satanists getting the Bible’s 10 commandments removed from public property, yet the satanic Georgia Guidestones have stood for decades, and nobody seems to care. Well, we do." [Thanks to Dispatches from the Culture Wars for the lead.]
UPDATE: Comments posted below by Bill Poser support strongly the conclusion that the Guidestones Monument is in fact on private property, and that the press release indicating otherwise is in fact a release by The Resistance, not by the Elberton Chamber of Commerce.
Friday, August 01, 2008
Leader of Christian Group Demands Removal of Georgia Guidestones Monument
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21 comments:
Dice is upset because the sees these guidelines as being anti-Christian, and he's taking it personally, especially this one:
"Avoid petty laws and useless officials."
Inscribed with "Let these be guidestones to an age of reason."
Yeah, I guess I can see where Christians wouldn't like that. They don't really want to see reason taking hold.
You are both correct, but symbolism like this should absolutely be removed from public property. These are clearly no different than sayings, scripture, teachings, "guidelines" etc. of any other religion and have no place being sanctioned by the government.
Tear 'em down.
lycian,
Sayings, teachings, and "guidelines" do not violate the Establishment clause. The Establishment clause is about religion.
The government can sanction some views permissibly. Freedom of speech is a value it not only can sanction, it must santion it. This is why Dice is trying to characterize these in a religious light. It's not clear, at least to me, that these are specifically religious tenets or attached to a specific religion.
It does make for an interesting argument, though. While the 10C's as a whole have some very religious overtones (especially the first few), what if a plaque was put up by the government saying just "Thou shalt not kill" without labelling it from the TC? This is certainly a view the government may espouse (perhaps we should take the tack of the gov't here and make it "Thou shall not murder"), and the only 1st Am objection would be based on its TC status.
And if this were allowable, could one then mix and match tenets from different religions -- maybe along with "Thou shalt not kill" put the Muslim, "Thou shalt not drink to excess". If we allowed these because no specific religion were being established, what would we then do if a religion started which held to exactly whatever semi-arbitrary principles we'd chosen?
It is a more interesting case than it looks at first glance, certainly.
The page identified as a release by the Elberton Chamber of Commerce appears to me to be misidentified. I think that it is actually a press release by The Resistance; it's tone certainly does not sound like that of a Chamber of Commerce press release. The only thing that seems to identify it as by the Chamber of Commerce is the Chamber of Commerce telephone number at the bottom of the page, but that could have been supplied by The Resistance. And it is curious that the page is on the web site of The Resistance, not that of the Chamber of Commerce.
This is important because this is the only source that I have seen according to which the monument is on public property.
Here is the web site of the Elbert County Chamber of Commerce (whose URL I obtained from the town of Elberton web site, so I am pretty sure that there is no distinct Elberton Chamber of Commerce): Elbert County Chamber of Commerce. I do not see this press release or anything else related to the monument.
Sorry, I spoke too soon. The Chamber of Commerce website does contain a description of the Guidestones. There is, however, no statement as to whether they are on public or private land and no trace of the cited press release.
The Guidestones appear to be on private land. According to the Georgia Mountains website, "The Georgia Gudestones are located on the farm of Mildred and Wayne Mullenix."
This is clearly a religious monument, but it is apparently on private property and doesn't appear to be blatantly offensive to a reasonable person and should be left alone.
While not a traditional, historically defined religion, the secular humanist eco doctrine worshipped by so many, that is in the monument, is as much a religion as any other and should be treated as such.
Anon,
There's nothing clearly religious about the monument and nothing apparently private about the property on which it sits. And you imply that your feelings have some bearing on the legality of the monument - they don't. You have no legal right whatsoever to be unoffended.
And where did you get the notion that secular humanism, which rejects supernatural cause and divine intervention, is a religion? Not collecting stamps is not a hobby.
Sadly, most readers here won't appreciate your pedestrian thoughts and poorly constructed sentences. Why waste your time and talent? Here's the link to Mr. Roger's Neighborhood.
Tim, I apologize. I forgot that people like you take a sentence in the newspaper and gullibly accept it as fact. Regrettably, I still fail to assume statements like the one here describing the monument site as "private property" as absolute, just because a newspaper writer said so. Silly me.
Your rant about secular-enviro-humanism not being a religion fairly well proves my point. You gonna be passing laws prohibiting offensive speech about it next? You don't see rocket scientists or archeologists getting bent about their beliefs like you just did. They just proceed to describe their provable and theoretical assertations in logical, sometimes passionate but never Tim style crazy ways.
Deny it Timmy, but you would be wrong. When a large number of people downright worship a philosophy like you do, it's a religion. Al makes a great messiah, doesn't he? All dressed in black, living in a massive temple. Kinda cool.
Anon,
Leaving aside the private/public property issue for a moment, how can you say this clearly represents a religion called secular humanism, even accepting secular humanism as a religion? After all, making general statements that we shouldn't ruin the Earth isn't a religion. Most Republicans (for example) would make the same statement, they just disagree with environmentalists about whether we currently are in the process of ruining the Earth. Not every expression of opinion counts as "religion".
If, for example, a plaque simply said, "Honor your parents" -- a statement that approximates a Christian one -- would it run afoul of the Establishment clause? What if it said "Honor your parents, don't steal, be honest, and be excellent to each other"? In fact, if you took the Ten Commandments, mixed them up, took out the overtly God-focused ones and put them in modern language, would anyone even object to such a plaque?
C'mon Cryptic, you are clearly one of the brighter posters on this blog, so knock it off. I know you know pagan "theology" when you see it. You are trying to sterilize the statements posted on the monument, when taken as a whole, there is clearly a pagan style nature worship theme to it.
You are trying to rationalize the common sense, rather from a religion or not is acceptable to all. But you know full well that the fanatically athiest among us would never agree to displaying such "truths" as slogans or mottos in a government setting, or teaching them in public schools even if there was no reference to God. Just the fact that the words originated in a religious doctrine is enough to send these people over the edge.
So, I will assume that you didn't follow the link and read the entire text of this pagan monument. Please do so before you try to pass it off as Ben Franklin or Mark Twaine common sense, applicable to all witicisms.
Final point. The secular-enviro-humanism movement is a religion to many, many people. They have no clue what they are worshipping but they like how it feels and so they worship it anyway. You cannot deny the fanaticism shared by these people and since most have no rational basis for their "faith" other than it "sounds good and that's what I'm down with" it becomes a faith, a religion. It's not the doctrine that creates the religion, it's the way people treat it.
"C'mon Cryptic, you are clearly one of the brighter posters on this blog, so knock it off. I know you know pagan "theology" when you see it."
But clearly, you don't, anon.
There is nothing even remotely theological about these guidestones. They are wishful and vaguely philosophical, but attached to no specific religion.
Chimera, if an Immodium suppository stopped oral diarrhea you would be in good shape. Unfortunately, I'm afraid you will continue to spew.
The monument is rife with nature worship sentiment that is straight out of pagan doctrine. The "humans bad, nature good" pap is straight out of the Al Gore's secular-enviro-humanist theology. "Wishful", "philosophical"? Maybe in your world. The rest of us don't believe that half of the world's population should be eradicated so that nature will flourish.
"Guide reproduction to improve fitness and diversity" !!!! Are you kidding me?! Let me guess, using Chimera as the model, abort all lesser babies!
Wow, I don't want to invoke the argument ending rule by dropping the name of the "master race" people from a few years back, but this does sound familiar.
I thought diversity was a great thing in your world. The monument proposes a one language world. French I would presume. That doesn't allow for much diversity and cultural attribute retention. Which do you want? Diversity or not?
"Wishful and vaguely philosophical".
Oh My God.
Pagans do not have a doctrine.
Al Gore is not a Pagan.
Concern for the sustainability of this planet on which we live is a pretty universal idea, and is not limited to any religion.
There is no mention of eradicating half the world's population.
You are part of nature.
Your god is not the only god.
And these are philosophical guidelines, not commandments.
Pagan's do not have a doctrine? While the term "Pagan" may describe a number of "religions" those most certainly do have doctrine dictating their purpose, tradition, rituals and so forth. And a common thread among the various sects/cults is the worship of nature, mother earth etc.
No mention of population eradication? How exactly do you suppose they intend to reduce the population to the 500 Million the monument specifically states is the goal? Oh, that's right, you can kill all the unborn babies you want because they don't have any rights.
Al Gore is not a Pagan. Thanks for sharing that. What Al is is not relevant to the fact that a hord of the living brain-dead worship him as a figurehead of nature worship above the sanctity of humanity.
Of course I'm part of nature. That doesn't mean I should harm my fellow man by implementing half-baked measures to please mother nature; like using all the corn to make ethanol leading to starvation in the 3rd world.
I can't say Oh My God? I have to say Oh everybody's God?
You forgot the part about guiding reproduction to produce a master race. Well? Wishful philosophical guidelines?
The people who adhere to this secular naturist folly would certainly debate your proclaimation that these are not commandments.
The Pirates Code is guidelines.
Are you a Pagan that you "know" what you say about doctrine? If so, feel free to quote it. Please.
The population cap is an idea and an ideal that had been surpassed long before the guidestones were set up. We are already past it by some twelve times. But you're not reading the reason for the idea...that five hundred million would keep us in balance with the rest of nature. Sadly, we are so out of balance that we "need" wars, famine, disease, and other disasters to diminish our human plague. No need to commit individual murders. We do it wholesale and call it natural, so no one of us can blame us as a species. We are the only animal that allows its members to outbreed its own food supply.
You were the one who brought Al Gore into the argument.
It is up to every individual whether or not to adopt these guidelines for himself. Or not. No one is forcing anyone to believe in either the philosophy or the reasoning. That's what makes them guidelines rather than commandments.
Whosever god you invoke is up to you.
The Pirates Code has merit, as well.
So Chimera,
I gather you are a Pagan since you so clearly know that there is no such thing as Pagan doctrine. I thought you were an Athiest and that Athiesm was not a religion? Paganism is a religion so I'm having a confusing moment here.
So you are telling me that all of the Pagan ritual, history, rites, gatherings, teachings, behaviors etc. are just pulled out of somebodies ass moments before the activity takes place? That's truly amazing how such improvisation can result in like behaviors by people who don't even know each other. Maybe they are all clairvoyant!
If invocation of God is up to me, why did you bark at me about mine not being the only God? I thought there was no God at all? Make up your mind.
You keep forgetting to mention the monument proposition of tinkering with breeding humans to produce that master race. I'm waiting to hear from you whose wishful, philosophical guideline that is.
What do you have against Al Gore?
I'm glad we concur on the Pirates Code.
You do not know what religion I have, if any, because I have not said. It's not important to you what religion I have, if any. It has no bearing on my ability to discuss anything.
You would probably be very surprised by what Pagans are able to acomplish, and how. The idea of clairvoyance and clairaudience had to come from somewhere, didn't it?
Your invoking of whatever god you choose is up to you. But your god is not the only god. Anyone else may choose to invoke a different god altogether, and that would be entirely up to him. You get to choose only your own god(s), not someone else's.
I have not mentioned anything about a "master race" because I don't read anything like that on the monument. Are you reading the same guidelines I'm reading?
I have nothing against Al Gore. I don't know the man. You were the one that brought him up.
Aaaarggghhhhh!
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