A federal lawsuit was filed last week challenging the display of the Ten Commandments in the courthouse in yet another Kentucky county. Yesterday's Lexington (KY) Herald-Leader reports that the ACLU has sued Jackson County and Judge-Executive William O. Smith seeking an injunction and a declaratory judgment that nine copies of the Ten Commandments on walls at various places in the courthouse in McKee (KY) violate the Establishment Clause. Separately, the ACLU has asked the state Administrative Office of the Courts to remove a large copy of the Ten Commandments on display in the court room in the Jackson County courthouse.
UPDATE: The July 11 Louisville Courier-Journal reports in more detail on the displays at issue. Framed copies of the Ten Commandments are posted at both entrances to the courthouse, outside several offices and next to a woman's restroom. Separate from these, and not the object of the ACLU's complaint, a Foundations of American Law and Government display (which includes the 10 Commandments among other historical documents) stands in the rear of the courthouse.
Tuesday, July 07, 2009
Suit Challenges Ten Commandments On Display In Kentucky Courthouse
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9 comments:
"We have staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart"-James Madison
"We've staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
The law given from Sinai {The Ten Commandments) was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code."--John Quincy Adams.
But we aren't supposed to post these Commandments in any public building???? Absurd.
The words of the founders are not a substitution for the Constitution which does not allow government to makes laws "respecting" an establishment.
If erecting graven religious laws wholly inapplicable as theological commands outside of one single religious tradition does not amount to a law "respecting" an establishment, I'm not sure what, shy of a law declaring Christianity the official government religion, would cut it.
Less than half (in fact, depending on how you argue it, less than a third) of our laws could even arguably have a basis in the Ten Commandments. Several commandments are directly antithetical to our laws, some are directly contrary to our Constitutional language itself, and several have absolutely no basis in civil legal systems like ours at all.
The Ten Commandments are religious laws which apply to the lives of believers. The religious laws qua religious laws are inapplicable to the lives of those who do not agree to the authority (or even existence) of the supposed lawgiver of those laws. Treat them as what they are, Deacon John - a source for your religious morality.
Don't hold them out to be what they cannot reasonably be interpreted to be: the basis of our civil laws, or of moral responsibility generally. You just don't have the ground to argue from.
Courthouses are government property, and every citizen should be free (and is Constitutionally required to be able) to enter a Courthouse, conduct their governmental business, and not have to do so under the religious edicts of a contrary religion.
I don't demand that you enter a courthouse under a sign proclaiming Christianity to be an obvious fraud. Don't demand that I enter a courthouse under your religious commandments.
I'd much rather we enter a courthouse under something like "E pluribus unum" or "ad astra per aspera".
--MD
Incredibly well said, MD. Your text should be required reading for every legislator, judge, and court adminisrator in Kentucky--and everywhere else.
I sometimes wonder what part of the "no-establishment" clause some people don't understand.
Deacon,
Your Madison quote is a fraud.
I cannot speak to your J Q Adams quote, having not read his writings extensively. I'm also willing to guess, given your past performance in this forum, that you haven't either.
And as MD says, a courthouse is a government building. Why you feel the need for the government to support and further your particular religious beliefs is something that you should consider.
This case, and the one above about prisoners access to Catholic Mass are illustrative of what ACLU does over and over again. Government organizations do not have religious rights, individuals do. And when individuals are acting in a governmental capacity, they must remember that.
Jim51
...the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion...
--Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11
As many would probably suspect of any quote cited by Bresnahan, the JQA quote has also been edited to falsify its meaning. What's missing at the ellipsis is "it contained many statutes adapted to that time only, and to the particular circumstances of the nation to whom it was given; they could of course be binding upon them, and only upon them, until abrogated by the same authority which enacted them, as they afterward were by the Christian dispensation". Clearly, Adams saw the applicability of the Ten Commandments not as universal but as situational, some good thoughts for today and some not so good ones. Had Adams been familiar with the Zulu war code, he might have made roughly the same observations. Hardly a good reason to plaster either on American court house walls.
What cracks me up is Mr. Bresnahan just recently ate a bit of crow by admitting the ACLU does some good because it had the same position as the Catholic church. Maybe what he failed to realize isn't that the ACLU was good because it took the Catholic position but the Catholic position was good because it coincided with that of the ACLU.
Maybe he should open his mind one more time and consider the possibility the ACLU could be on the right side here also.
-American Atheist
According to an internet site that has quotes from the Founding Fathers the John Quincy Adams comment is in a letter to his son. And James Madison's comment was made to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia.
The overall point of the 10 pages of quotes being that our country was originally steeped in Judeo-Christian values and culture. But today there seems to be a movement to wipe this heritage from our current culture through dictatorial court power in a manner never intended by those who wrote and those who voted to approve the U.S. Constitution.
Deacon,
An "internet site" is not a Founding Father. Your Madison quote is a fraud. Among our Founders Madison was one of the strictest of separationists. That you would attempt to claim the imprimatur of his support on mixing Church and civil government indicates how little you know about him. Stop reading your 'internet sites' and start reading Madison. He was well able to speak for himself.
Why do you do this? Why do you claim support from studies that you have not read, and from people that you do not know? You have been hammered on this point several times from several posters here and yet you persist. Cribing quotes from some internet site is not a substitute for understanding.
Madison earned more respect than that would indicate.
"...today there seems to be a movement to wipe this heritage from our current culture..."
Nonsense. Insisting that civil government not be used as a sectarian tool is not even close to attempting to "wipe this heritage from our current culture." That's just another code phrase, like 'public square,' that has little to do with the actual issue being discussed.
Jim51
PS. Thanks to Tim for exposing the mendacity of the J Q Adams quote.
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